Webtrading.com & Commodity Traders Club News Home Page: Message #48

Date: Sep 01 2000 03:11:40 EDT
From: "Webtrading.com & Commodity Traders Club News" <ctcn@webtrading.com>
Subject: Webtrading.com - CTCN Webtrading - CTCN Trading Knowledge Traders Ezine Aug 31, 2000

Dear Trading Friend,

As a reminder, you are getting email from us because you either
once asked to go on this Traders Ezine list, or requested info on a
trading related subject we normally cover via this communications method,
or you are a client of ours. Your email address and other information will
be kept confidential per our online Privacy Pledge. Of course, you may
opt-off this Traders EZine at any time if you do not find this trading
knowledge useful.

A few interesting articles follow, and then the status of the Real Success
2 Course, and the Joe Ross email reprints:


Why People Do Not Make Money Buying and Selling Commodities - W. D. Gann:

I have stated in my books many times the market does not beat you, it is
your own human weakness that causes you to defeat yourself. The average
man or woman nearly always wants to buy low and sell high. The farmer
always wants to sell at high prices whatever he produces but he wants to
buy what he needs at low prices. 

The laboring man wants high wages all the time but wants low prices for
what he buys to eat and wear. This is a violation of a fundamental
economic law and it just will not work. T

To make a success in speculation, you cannot expect to buy low and sell
high. You will make money when you do exactly the opposite of what the
average man or woman wants to do or tries to do, and makes a failure and
loses as a result of what they are trying to do.

You will make profits when you learn to Buy High and Sell Low. You must
learn to follow the trend of prices and realize that they are Never Too
High To Buy as Long as the Trend is Up and Never Too Low To Sell as Long
as the Trend is Down.


A Simple Way To Predict Market Turning Points (and impress your friends) -
Bob Pelletier (President of CSI):

This brief report is designed to advise those who may have an interest in
systems, methods, or services which predict market turning points far into
the future. 

If you have been solicited by any firm that does this, you may gain some
important insight into this area by reading on. Whether you plan to
purchase such a service, system or secret is your personal choice. CSI has
no preference for one commercially available procedure over another. 

We simply wish to point out facts that may be helpful.
If I were to tell you to "Pick any date in the future, for any commodity,
and I will show you the next turning point that will occur relative to
that date." 

You might think I'm crazy, or strongly doubt my claim. The truth is, that
anyone can do this within an accuracy of, say, three days about 70% of the
time, or within four days 80 to 90 per cent of the time. 

The secret depends upon how one defines "turning points". Suppose we
define intermediate market swings or turning points to occur about 25
times per year, or twice per month. Since there are about 250 trading days
per year, this allows for one turning point per 10 days. 

With a dart and a calendar into the future, the dart will hit some seven
day time interval (the day hit plus or minus three days) each time it is
thrown. If turning points occur, on the average, once every 10 days, then
there is a 70% chance my dart will include a turning point within three

Additionally, if I knew that last week there was a definite low, my next
turning point will be a peak. I'm not interested in (several years from
now); I may not live that long. I can only make money if I can bet on the
next immediate turning point for various cycle lengths.

There is not enough room in this Newsletter to show how market turning
points can be predicted with more reliability, but it is possible to
provide an unbiased estimate of the next peak and the next trough for each
given predominate cycle period. Using a method which treats peaks
independent of troughs can produce a non-regular period between peaks and
troughs (a more realistic behavior) for future market cycles.

Before spending your hard-earned funds on any system, be careful to
discover what you can do under purely chance conditions without it.

    Finally ready for video tape duplication over the Labor Day weekend
and shipping next week! 

After an amazing string of problems the new Real Success 2nd Edition will
be finished on Sept 1st. We will not bore you with all the odd details
causing this long delay at this time but can assure you the issues were
quite serious and time consuming.

One positive outcome of this is the finished tapes trading knowledge and
taped trades are even better than expected and also the picture and audio
quality is much improved over our original 1996 Real Success Trading

We also discovered an amazing new sub-set trading method within the basic
Real Success methodology which may be used by itself as a great way to
potentially sell near the tops of moves and buy near the bottoms. It’s by
far the best and most reliable way we have ever seen for trading the
larger swings and getting in them very early.

To make it up to our patient Real Success 2 clients, we will be sending
them an additional knowledge-packed video tape (at no cost) about 2 weeks
after you get the new 4-Tape RS2 Course. The bonus tape goes into more
detail on a newly discovered and amazing profit-potential sub-set system
found within the primary Real Success Methodology, known for now as the
Keltner Extreme Trading Method. 

You still have time to order the new course (and also get the free 5th
Tape as a bonus) if you have not already done so. The 2nd Edition Ordering
Agreement is here https://www.traders.org/rsorder.htm  


Here are the series of Joe Ross E-Mails you have been expecting. They are
from Joe Ross and reprinted with his permission, from myself and also from
several CTCN Members regarding Joe.

They are really amazing in regards to what I was told and the fact Joe
denies most things saying there were people impersonating him for some odd

Hi D, In reply, I don't know which of the Joe Ross books has the Vanilla
Hook in it. Once I tried to buy all his (high priced) books but I did not
get them as Mrs. Ross wanted to severely overcharge me for S&H, something
I really don't like paying due to the principles involved. 
She wanted to charge me approx 10 times the true S&H costs. It was bad
enough Joe wanted to charge excessively for his books, I think almost $200
a book, but also charge a huge mailing cost - way too much, so I never
ordered as Mrs. Joe Ross said she would not lower the S&H fees no matter
what, even if I cancelled the order, which I did.
Like I said, we don't use the Vanilla Hook but I think it may be a
Reversal Bar from what I understand, where on a buy signal the low is
below the prior bar but the close is above it (I think but not positive).
Dave Green - CTCN

Re: The addition of Joe Ross to Webtrading Opt-In Ezine Mailing List: 

Hi Joe, Are you the same Joe Ross of Ross Trading or another Joe Ross?
Please let us know as it's important. Per your request we put this new
email address on the list. Regards,  Dave Green 

HI DAVE, Long time, no contact.  Yes, I'm the same Joe Ross I've always
been, only hopefully a bit wiser and a bit more mature.
I'm not sure why I am responding to your question and I didn't even
realize that you were on my mailing list.  Had I known, I don't think I
would have sent you a change of address.
I have been very disappointed in CTCN. It has become the very thing I
cautioned you about when you first started it.  Why do you want CTCN and
your Website to contain all the filth, hearsay and rumors, that are so
abundant in this industry?  I had hoped that you would separate yourself
from the kinds of rot that one finds in Club 3000.  You could have made
your site, positive and uplifting. 
Your website contains unproven dirt about me (mostly written by Bruce
Babcock), and I don't appreciate it. You have never bothered to find out
the truth about Bruce Babcock's raking of me. Bruce was an egotistical
slob, who while posing as a consumer's reporter for traders was at the
same time selling systems that didn't work.
When Bruce called me up to tell me that he was going to review my book, he
also requested my trading statements.  I told him at the time, that there
were no statements with my name on them.  The statements were corporate
property, and did not contain my name. He had no business seeing private
corporate statements that would not have served as proof that I was the
person trading the account. 

More than that, the other principals in the firm were quite incensed at
the time that he would even request something that was absolutely none of
his business.  If Bruce was going to review the book, he should have
reviewed it and not me.  I requested that of him, but instead, he decided
that I had never traded, because I wouldn't send him the statements.  
And now you have promulgated his lie via your (webtrading.com) s also a
statement on your site that says that I contacted Ken Roberts and that he
was my teacher.  The fact that Ken Roberts was still wearing short pants
when I began trading seems to have alluded you.  I have investigated and
found out who it was that sent Ken Roberts a letter with the initials 'JR'
from Lee's Summit.  

Little did I know at the time how that would be turned into so-called
proof Ken Roberts taught me how to trade.  The truth is that a fellow
named Alan Skinner, a former associate of mine, did it at the time as a
practical joke.  

Alan (now deceased) worked for me, and was on his own studying Robert's
material, not for purposes of trading, but for purposes of marketing.  Ken
Roberts is a great marketer as you know.  Alan wrote to KR and signed the
letter with my initials.  So Dave, now you know the truth.  Will you
retract that horrible piece that now inhabits your website?
Dave, have you ever read any of my books?  If you have, you would know
that only someone who has traded for many years could possibly have
written them. All I'm asking is that you be fair. There is another side to
the story. Best regards, J.R.

Hi Joe, everything is so odd and weird! Yes, it certainly is and you have
some very interesting slants on some of things I wrote.  I guess you are a
hard man to convince.  I really don't want to beat this thing to death,
but I'll give it one more try.
By the way, it very well could have been 8 yrs ago when I spoke to a Mr.
and Mrs. Joe Ross, as I was only guessing when I said approx 5 to 7 yrs
ago. Dave
Even if it was 8 years ago there is no way my wife would have engaged in a
conversation such as you describe.  The only other person it could have
been was Dee Stone.  Maybe you spoke with her.
Also, I do recall I called a phone number (I think) in Leander, TX.
Remember getting the number and address of one of your ads possibly in
Club 3000 or some other publication. You and your wife said you were in
Leander but moving to the Bahamas soon. You said you had already been
there and purchased a property there and were temporarily back in Texas
planning the more permanent move to the Bahamas for your cancer
treatments. You also commented how you liked the Bahamas, etc. Dave

This is a very interesting memory.  For one thing, we never purchased any
property in the Bahamas nor did we ever intend to.  The other thing is
that I have never had cancer, don't want to have cancer, and did not go to
the Bahamas for treatment of cancer.  If I ever do have cancer, I will go
to Mexico, not Bahamas.  The part about me liking Bahamas is definitely
true.  I liked it enough to move there, but only to a rented house.  I
lived there for close to 6 years, and then moved to South Africa, where I
currently have a house that I own. It is a beautiful place up in the
mountains, and very quiet and peaceful.  

I originally went there to set up a Ross trading franchise for a friend
who died suddenly.  He had begun an educational work (he was not a trader)
in teaching South Africans about the U.S. markets and how, if they learned
to trade, they would have a way out of South Africa and could live and
work pretty much where they wanted.  When he died, I moved to South Africa
and continued the work he started.  

I now have a master franchisee and three sub-franchises in South Africa.
We also cover Zimbabwe from there.  The South Africans have done much
better than their U.S. wannabe traders. Frankly, it's amazing how quickly
they learn, and they do succeed.  They are truly motivated. We get them as
total novices and train them in the correct way to trade the Markets.  As
a rule, they are not subjected to all the flap from the U.S. until they
already have a firm foundation.

In addition, I even mentioned you had cancer in my newsletter and asked my
members to pray for you also. Dave


That was very kind of you.

After that I received a few phone calls from traders who said they had
heard about you moving to the Bahamas for a cancer treatment which was
banned in the USA, as it was not approved by the FDA. However, they heard
you could get the drug overseas. They heard this independently of myself
about you. I think even Bruce Babcock heard about your move to the Bahamas
for cancer treatment on his own as I recall discussing it with him. Dave

That's amazing. It just shows you how the BS can fly.  There's an awful
lot of it flying around in this industry.  But your email is first time
I've heard about the cancer rumor.  The one who had cancer was Bruce
Babcock, not me.


Joe, you referred to your health problems yourself in a 1995 issue of CTCN
when you said: 

“My health has been questionable lately. I ask your readers who believe in
prayer to pray for healing for me. Joe Ross. 

Your believed to be wife, told me how she lived of your excessive S&H
fees. Dave

That's incredible!  It simply does not compute. 

She said the book revenue went solely to you and she depended on the
rip-off S&H fees for her income as she kept that money for herself! Dave

Another amazing statement, considering that my wife has never lacked for
income and has always handled all the money in our family.  I always
depend on her for my pocket money.  I hate dealing with money and numbers
because of my severe dyslexia.
I wish I had it all on tape but do remember the conversations like it was
yesterday. Plus, the man I talked to who said he was you sounded like a
typical middle-aged Southern Gentleman, definitely not someone from
Boston, Mass. As you say the Watkins were from. If Watkins was from Boston
why would he and his wife be answering your phone in Texas with a
non-Massachusetts accent and claiming to be Mr. And Mrs. Joe Ross? It
makes no sense at all, Joe! Dave.

You are assuming you called Texas, but perhaps you didn't.  When we left
Texas, we had the phone forwarded for a year to the Boston number.
Neither of the Watkins’ had a Boston accent, and I certainly do not sound
like a southern Gentleman. If anything, people spot me as having come from
New York, which is true.
There are two people that worked in my office besides Bernie Goggins.  Dee
Stone and Boyd Stone, brother and sister.  I don't know why they would
pull a prank like that, but it is possible that they did if indeed you
were calling Leander, Texas at the time you mention.

Plus, why would Mr. Skinner pretend to be you as at the time I don't think
you were well-known at all. Dave

I didn't say that Alan had pretended to be me.  I said he might have. Alan
was a practical joker and I can picture him calling Ken Roberts and
spoofing him.  I can also picture Alan as, after talking to Ken, telling
him that he would write him a testimonial letter.  Then to top it all off,
he signed my name or initials.  I've seen that letter in Ken's literature,
and it definitely wasn't me.  

The reason that I suspected it was Alan, is the phrase 'this may very well
be the last bastion of true capitalism.'  The only person I know who used
that phrase often was Alan Skinner.  In fact he used it so often that I
picked up on it and put it in 'Trading By The Book.'  Alan edited 'Trading
By The Book.'  He had been a stockbroker and for a very short time a
trader in futures, particularly the Mexican peso and silver.  Alan had the
background to be a critical editor of that book.

So why would Ken Roberts be impressed somehow being tricked into thinking
it was you calling when you were relatively obscure at that time? Dave
You assume that Alan was trying to impress Ken.  I think he was just
pulling Ken's leg.  Alan received Ken's literature and showed it to me,
and I know for a fact that he spoke by telephone to Ken more than once.  I
personally never have.

Also, Bruce said it was a testimonial letter from you signed J.R. – Lees
Summit, MO, not a phone call, again makes no sense at all. Dave
It makes sense to me.  Ken was and still is always looking for
testimonials.  I think Alan got a kick out of signing my initials to that
testimonial because it would tickle him to think that Ken would put the
testimonial of an actual trader in his literature.
Plus, you say you had apparently handed over Ross trading many years ago
(1992) to Watkins. Yet for many of the last 8 years I have seen various
ads for books and seminars etc in various places, all listing the name
Ross trading and Joe Ross. Why did you continue to use that name if you
were no longer with Ross Trading. Also, why in the world would you hand
over a seemingly money making business like Ross Trading over to someone
else in the first place? Dave

Ross Trading has not ceased to exist during those 8 years.  Ron Watkins
ran his company as Ross Trading, Inc.  When he couldn't make a success out
of it, he turned it over to my daughter-in-law, Denise Ross, and it
remained Ross Trading, Inc., only domiciled in Texas, not Massachusetts.
When I had the company, it was Ross Trading International, Inc.  When I
moved to the Bahamas, I formed a corporation there called Trading
Educators, Ltd.  

At present, Trading Educators no longer exists other than as an Internet
domain name.  I have no association with Ross Trading, Inc., other than
that I am Denise's father-in-law.  I do not run the company and I have no
say in the Company.  There are times when Denise asks for advice, but she
asks others for advice as well.  
Dave you are in error when you say that Ross Trading is/was a big money
making business.  It barely supports Denise on the sale of books, but
unlike Ron Watkins, Denise is not trying to make a fortune from the
business.  Ron was, and he advertised heavily.  However, the sale of only
books did not justify the advertising budget he had.  

When I had Ross Trading International, the main source of income was not
book sales, but seminars.  The seminars were in addition to my trading and
newsletter.  Ron did not have a newsletter, and he did not hold seminars.
That was his downfall.  Denise does not hold seminars either, but she's
looking only for a way to supplement the family income.  It works for her
through her company, Ross Trading Inc.

Joe, this is all real odd and seems like the twilight zone or some really
weird science fiction story. A real amazing chain of events. Dave

Dave, I think that a lot of what's odd is the way you are interpreting the
things I'm telling you.  But I never knew even 1/10th of the things you
are saying until you wrote to me.  


Nevertheless, myself and many traders have respect for your general
teachings and technical knowledge and research, and believe you have
contributed good overall knowledge and services to the commodities futures
business. Dave

That's nice to know!

In many ways you have things in common with your archenemy, the late Bruce
Babcock, in that you are both extremely controversial, yet both very
knowledgeable and valuable assets in many ways to the commodities business
as product vendors to help educate traders. Dave

Dave, I didn't think of Bruce as my archenemy, even when he was alive.  I
was terribly disappointed in that instead of reviewing my book, which was
what he called about, Bruce reviewed his impressions of me.  His
impressions were based entirely on his assumption that I had never traded
simply because I would not and could not turn over private corporate
information to him.  If I have a reputation as being controversial, it is
because of Bruce and his fabrication about my never having traded.  
You know it is an amazing thing: Bruce claimed that I learned from Ken
Roberts.  Joe Dinapoli claims that he taught me everything I know.  SAT
proclaimed he learned how to daytrade the S&P from me, now proclaims that
I never traded and that what I write about I learned from him.  He has
come to South Africa with his seminars, and that is what he is saying.
Gary Smith claims that George Angell and myself ought to be shot. At least
he doesn't claim to have taught me how to trade.  

There are a couple of others out there who also claim to have taught me
everything I know, but at the moment I can't recall who they are.
Alexander Elder, at the time he was reviewing books for futures magazine
called me up and asked for a review copy of 'Trading By The Book.'  The
book was to be returned to me when he was done with the review.  The
review never appeared in futures magazine, and he never returned the book.

Shortly thereafter, he came out with his 'triple screen trading system.'
Amazing, because in trading by the book I show a triple filtering system
that is uncannily like Elders.  When I wrote that book, I had never heard
of Elder or his 'triple screen' thing.  Elder buys my books from Traders
Press and sells them to his clients.  At the same time, he tells people I
never have traded.  

In every case, the rumor that I never traded can be traced back to Bruce's
review of 'Trading By The Minute' and his claim that I never traded based
on my refusal to show him statements that were none of his business.
Bruce acted as a self-appointed god and placed himself as both judge and
jury over me.
Dave, we need to end this dialogue. You now have all that I really have to
say about this situation.  Believe what you want to.  I have told you the
truth.  I do the same in my books, and at my seminars.  I bear no grudges
towards you, Bruce, (Editor’s Note: I don’t think Bruce Babcock cares as
he is now deceased!), or any of the people I've mentioned.  I refuse to
make their problems my own.  If they feel that putting me down is the way
to the top, then I feel sorry for them.  It's not my way to be like that.  

Memories are imperfect.  You are not even sure where you called, or who
picked up the phone.  I know that my wife would never have said what you
are quoting her as Saying: i.e., that I took all money from the books and
she made all her money from S&H - it's ludicrous.  I know that I would
never have told you that I was going to the Bahamas for cancer treatments.
Such a thing would never even have entered my mind.  It is a total
fiction, and I never said such a thing to anyone.
Dave, since I was 35 I have believed that I must answer to a higher
authority.  I would never jeopardize that by lying about something as
serious as cancer.
Whether you believe me or not, I wish you the very best that life has to
offer. Think on the good things and the positive things. Let your CTCN and
your website be a reflection of those, and not some sort of scandal sheet.
There is plenty of worthwhile information out there.  You can help people
through your work. All the best, J.R.
Subject: Vanilla Hook. Dear Dave, Hello. Could you please give me the
definition for "vanilla hook", as it was mentioned by SAT in one of his
articles. Thank you, Ian
I know this is a stupid question to ask, but is your intra-day trading
methodology, which you sell as a trading course, good? Thanks, Ian


Hi Ian, I am not 100% sure how to define the Vanilla Hook. We do not use
it and never did. P.S. By the way, of course, we consider our Real Success
Course “good.”
I once asked Joe Ross if we could reprint the Vanilla Hook in CTCN as
published in his Book (he coined the term from what I understand) and he
said NO as he said he had it Copyrighted. Dave Green

Hi Dave, hanks for the info about your website and your suggestions re.
The Testimonials.  I will keep it in mind for the future.
My primary reason for sending them to you was to give you a glimpse of the
Kinds of letters I get from people --- and they are unsolicited. They were
sent for your personal perusal, nothing more.
Right now I'm so busy teaching that I do not have time to trade.  What I
do Have is someone who trades an account for me using my daily advisory
---- Traders Notebook.
That frees me up to teach and train and relieves me of the market
pressures. I'm getting to old to trade. I'm now 65 years old and am tired
of trading an the constant stress.
I am working on building an educational website and maybe we could
exchange Links.
By the way, the lady you spoke to a number of years ago was not my wife
nor did it have anything to do with me or my wife.  My wife and I had
moved to The Bahamas and I literally handed Ross Trading to a fellow named
Ron Watkins up in Boston.  

As far as I was concerned at the time, Ross Trading no longer Needed to be
in business.  Ron Watkins tried to make a business of selling my Books,
but he failed.  Ron and his wife were very rude to people and Virtually
destroyed all the good PR we had built over the years with our book

At the time Ron went broke my daughter-in-law, Denise, wanted To have a
small business, and so she took over the business from Ron.  She Now runs
Ross Trading.  I am not a principal in Ross Trading any longer.  It Is her
business and I don't butt in.  I'm sure that if you ever wanted to get
Some books from her you will find Denise to be a real trooper.  She's a
kick In the ass to talk to and people really like her.
I don't want to email your ear off, so I’ll quit. All the best, J.R. (Joe


	This concludes he Joe Ross emails exchanges. Very interesting and amusing


P.S. Here are some trading links we suggest you look at:

Non-Commercial No-Advertising and Free real-time non-delayed E-Mini
S&P-500 chart micro-website https://www.e-mini-sp.com/

Commodity Traders Club Free Knowledge Based Primary Website

The Real Success 2nd Edition Trading Course Information is here 

CTCN Club Paid Membership https://www.webtrading.com/member.htm

Traders Organization Portal Guide for Daytraders https://www.traders.org

Webtrading Knowledge Based Traders Search Engine

Our Low-Cost W. D. Gann Trading Techniques Gann Methods Trading Course

Low-Cost Options & Spreads Trading Course – The author (Greg Donio) say’s
90% Wins Are Possible with this particular options strategy!

TradersAuction for selling & buying both trading products and domain names
at auction prices https://www.tradersauction.com

Free access to both free real-time and delayed data and charts on most
futures markets https://www.commodity-price-charts.com 

CSI is our very highly recommended data provider (for non real-time data)
in all markets, stocks, commodities and options. They are rated number-1
for data quality. We have used them since the early 1980’s and found them
superb: https://www.webtrading.com/links/csi.htm 

The owner of CSI, Bob Pelletier, is a pioneer in the trading markets
computerized data field. He also writes an interesting newsletter for CSI

The next regularly scheduled Traders Ezine will be sent in approximately

All the best,

Dave Green


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