Webtrading.com & Commodity Traders Club News Home Page: Message #37

Date: Mar 01 2000 15:07:21 EST
From: "Commodity Traders Club" <ctcn@webtrading.com>
Subject: About Joe Ross, Ken Roberts, Futures Truth & Censorship issues

Dear Trading Friend,

As a reminder, you are getting email from webtrading.com and CTCN because
you either once asked to go on this list, or requested info on a trading
related subject we normally cover via this communications method, or you
are a client of ours. Of course, you may opt-out the list at any time if
for some reason you do not find this free trading knowledge useful.

  Hi Lorique and thanks for the advice and feedback. Here is my
statement on the issues you have raised. Your original email to
CTCN on this appears below my own:

Before Bruce Babcock passed away I spoke a number of times to him
and he swore his Joe Ross Report we now have online (with his
permission) was totally accurate. He also said he actually liked
Joe and thought some of his trading methodology was good and
valuable, though Joe's books were overpriced and Joe's own
background and trading record was false or exaggerated.

Upon review at the time, Bruce's article on Joe seemed to make
sense and have a definite ring of truth to it (based on the
evidence Bruce presented), though no one except Joe Ross knows
the absolute truth with certainty. Personally, I have always
respected Joe a lot and still do to this day, except for the one
incident I had with him, referred to next.

I only had one run-in with Joe Ross. It was a number of years ago
when I called to order 10 of his (very high priced) books (both
for myself and for some client orders). Joe's wife wanted to
charge an incredible excessive shipping charge for each book
individually, though they were being shipped UPS Ground as one
package. The shipping charge she asked for was (if I recall
right), more than two hundred dollars, though the true cost was
only about 10% of that!

When I complained to Joe about the excessive fee (mostly on the
principals involved) Joe said sorry I have to pay it as that is
how his wife earns her income (from their excessive shipping
fees) on their orders. An amazing admission but at least he was
truthful about it! I told them unless they charged a fair
shipping charge I would not place the order. They refused and
lost my order which I think was for over two thousand dollars,
what with the 10 or so books being priced quite high, I think
averaging close to $200 per book!

Unfortunately, CTCN's general mission is to report to the public
all important trading news, both the positives and the negatives.
We are not the Police and have no investigative staff or budget
for it, and also have no authority or credentials to investigate
even if we wanted to try it. Plus, how do we know for sure what
the truth is even if we could investigate it, after all we may be
wrong in our evaluation of the "truth" of article content.

What do you want us to do about this Joe Ross Special Report we
have online here https://www.webtrading.com/ross.htm It was
written by both Joe for CTCN, and the second part by Bruce
Babcock. It was not written by myself but only published in CTCN.
Should we allow you and a few others to be behind our removing it
from our website so others are not allowed to read it, with no
real evidence it is wrong or unjust, other than some assertions?

We have also run into this problem with several unfriendly emails
from unidentified people objecting to our publishing the Ken
Roberts Special Report
https://www.webtrading.com/ken-roberts.htm though it was written
by an unrelated (to me - but with the same last name)
contributing author for Forbes Magazine. These emails objecting
to it may have been from Ken Roberts' employees for all I know,
as they were anonymous.

This situation is similar to the Futures Truth negatives we have
online. We have asked both John R. Hill and George Pruitt of
Futures Truth to rebut all the accusations about their Top-10
Trading Systems publications are of little or no value. This is
based on the alleged fact few if any traders ever achieve results
even close to what FT was reporting to the public. However, after
numerous invitations (both verbal and in writing) FT refuses to
discuss this issue and give their side of the story. Therefore,
there is little we can do but keep on reporting the accusations
as there is no contrary evidence.

We ask both Joe Ross and Ken Roberts (and anyone else) to rebut
what was said. They can refute any of the individual issues or as
an alternative speak in general terms. We will publish what they
have to say and if in fact their rebuttals make sense or seem
sincere we will also voluntarily remove the negative articles or

Perhaps you (Lorique) could prevail upon Joe Ross to rebut what
Babcock said. We sure would appreciate it as we would like
nothing better than to publish any rebuttals. By the way, we try
to publish more positives than negatives. If you scan our website
Search Engine https://www.webtrading.com/links/searchengine.htm
you will also find lots of positives on these parties in addition
to any negatives.

I agree with you about Joe (and also Ken Roberts and Futures
Truth too) making some positive contributions to futures trading
over the years, so it's far from lots of negatives as you seem to
imply. In fact, the negatives on our website (though they get
considerable publicity) are in a fairly insignificant minority,
as the vast majority of webtrading.com content is positive in its

Thanks for your interest and feedback.

All the best, Dave Green www.webtrading.com  In reply to the
letter below:

Hello David,

You will never guess who this is, (but I do know you quite well).
I can't reveal my true identity as my employers would be compromised.

David, I have just had the misfortune to read the most vile,
vituperative, slanderous, libelous diatribe upon which I have ever had the
misfortune to cast my eyes.

I therefore need to tell you that your website is becoming, shall
we say, "more than a little over the top"?  It is beginning to smack of
the sort of Murdoch "Tabloid Journalism" at its worst,  that we have come
to experience in this land.  What will be the next thing  David,  will we
be subjected to "page three boobs" in CTCN.

I refer,  of course,  to the "Special Report # 10: The Joe Ross
Report". David,  before you print this sort of rubbish,  you should at
least investigate the facts.  Moreover, this particular piece was
written many years ago by someone whose nick name, I believe with some
justification, was "Babblecock", and who has long since departed for
nether regions.  David, you really should know better than to repeat this
sort of muck and hold it out as truth and justice.  If you throw
excrement,  it tends to stick on ones hands as well as defiling the

David,  I expected more from you than this.  I have noticed the
tone of your website has become more strident and rabid over the past year
or so.  This particular piece of literary filth would do justice to
Goebbels elaborating on Churchill's shortcomings.  Dave, it is really
disgusting, and lowers the whole tone of your, until recently, excellent

You see David, I happen to know the full,  true story behind Joe
Ross. Unfortunately,  the man that I know is totally different to the
one who is described in your article.  I also know the story behind Mr.
Babcock, and Dr Alexander Elder,  who also sprouts this bile whenever he
has the chance.

I suggest you contact Joe to find out the truth of the matter,
and perhaps then you might do the decent thing and print a prominent
retraction. To be kind,  Mr. Babcock tended to handle the truth rather

The other matter upon which I should like to take issue is
Trading Systems. While you disparage other sellers of systems,  you are
still selling systems yourself.  IF your systems are so good,  why don't
you give up with the newsletter and just go and trade your systems,  and
make all the money you could ever hope to squander on your lusts?

David,  something doesn't ring true here.  I have been a
subscriber because I was under the impression that I might be presented
with responsible journalism.  As a good friend of mine in Australia said
to me recently, "Lorique,  believe nothing you hear,  very little of what
you read,  and about half of what you see with your own eyes.  On top of
that, assume nothing,  and trust nobody.  Everybody is guilty until proved
innocent". Sound advice.

I can only say that I don't sell trading systems,  I just trade
them,  and nothing would convince me to reveal my methods for ANY sum of
money no matter how large.  I would then have my trading records under
scrutiny and I know that the people,  for who I trade would never sanction
such a thing, which is Joe's reason as well. If I failed to disclose my
trading records, I would then leave myself open to the sort of denigration
that incompetent journalists would heap upon me.

Anyway,  Why give away something that takes years of hard work
and discipline to hone into a useable tool.  The interesting thing is that
even if I did reveal my methods, no one would take them seriously anyway
as they are so absolutely simple.  You see,  the secret is the discipline
and experience and the application,  not the actual method or system.
That is what Mr. Babcock and his ilk can never appreciate.

What I can also tell you is that Joe Ross' methods work!  Joe
does have his own special reasons for trying to impart his vast
experience, and it is certainly not money.  One reason is that he is in
his mid sixties,  and has been on the "other side".  Go to his website,
read the letter that is on there,  and then go and talk to the man instead
of denigrating him with tripe written by a totally incompetent journalist.

Joe has made all the money anyone could want to spend in one
lifetime,  and is a very humble man of modest and sober habits.  But as he
has said, "...if you give things away,  people don't appreciate them!"  I
have to agree with him.  What Joe has to offer far exceeds what most of
the "System Sellers" do,  even the ones that actually work.

David,  for the sake of those who are not as experienced,  nor as
knowledgeable as I,  lift your game.  It does you no credit at
all to grovel in nightsoil.  After this little episode, I doubt if I could
ever really believe a word of what is written in your newsletter.

Your erstwhile admirer,

Adieu, Lorique

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